Sanctum: Mehr als Fitness – Die Kraft achtsamer Bewegung

 

Luuk Melisse ist Co-Founder von Sanctum, einer internationalen Mindful-Movement-Brand, die High-Intensity-Bewegung, Atemarbeit und emotionalen Ausdruck in einem einzigartigen Format verbindet. Ursprünglich aus der Welt von Schauspiel und zeitgenössischem Tanz kommend, versteht er Bewegung als Zugang zu Emotionen und Bewusstsein – nicht nur als körperliche Übung. Gemeinsam mit seinem Co-Founder Gabriel entwickelte er Sanctum als Praxis, die körperliche Aktivierung, innere Fokussierung und kathartische Entladung miteinander vereint.

Sanctum ist heute eine wachsende Community mit Sessions, Retreats und Ausbildungen, die Menschen weltweit zusammenbringen. Im Zentrum steht die Idee, durch Bewegung Intimität, Präsenz und echte Verbindung zu sich selbst und anderen zu schaffen – jenseits klassischer Fitnesskonzepte.

Mehr über Sanctum: https://www.wearesanctum.com/

 

151 Sanctum: Where Fitness Ends and Transformation Begins. With Luuk Melisse

[Luuk Melisse] (0:57 - 1:17)
You push your physical body, you went inwards. When I ended up in the fitness scene as a psycho instructor and as a pilates instructor, I totally missed that connection. So we incorporate all those little elements to create a community.

And because of those elements, we see after a class that people want to stay.

[Nils Behrens] (1:17 - 1:21)
All the pictures which have taken from me during the class are ugly.

[Luuk Melisse] (1:21 - 1:31)
I disagree. One thing I learned is to really follow your intuition when hiring people. That's why you are a rebellious man.

[Nils Behrens] (1:32 - 2:40)
Welcome to HEALTHWISE, the health and longevity podcast brought to you by Sunday Natural. I'm Nils Behrens and in this podcast we explore what it truly means to be healthy. Together we will dive into topics such as medicine, exercise, nutrition and emotional well-being.

Always with a wise perspective on what generally benefits us. We are here at the Soneva Soul Festival where body, mind and environment come together in a dance of energy and presence. On this journey we explore experiences that shift how we relate to our own being and to the world.

Luuk Melisse is the co-founder of Sanctum, a global mindful movement community that fuses high-intensive movement, breastwork, sonic design and emotional release into a multi-sensory immersive classes. Based out of Amsterdam, Sanctum hosts events in monumental spaces and offers retreats, immersive festivals and trainings. With roots in ballet and spiritual practice, Luuk reimagines what movement can mean beyond fitness.

And so I say a warm welcome, Luuk Melisse.

[Luuk Melisse] (2:40 - 2:41)
Thank you so much for having me, Nils.

[Nils Behrens] (2:42 - 2:45)
Luuk, it's such a pleasure. So yesterday was Sunday.

[Luuk Melisse] (2:46 - 2:46)
Yes.

[Nils Behrens] (2:46 - 2:57)
The final of the Sonova Soul Festival. What meaning does Sunday hold to you in terms of rest, reflection or ritual, especially when you are leading immersive movement work?

[Luuk Melisse] (2:58 - 3:30)
That's a very good question. And I'm going to be totally honest with you. I don't have the best relationships with certain days in a week.

I am an entrepreneur as well, leading the Sanctum community. And I take rest whenever I can. So my rhythm is maybe sadly not bound by weekdays.

So it can be the case that I am working on certain Sundays and it can also be the case that I'm off. But sometimes it can happen that Wednesday is my day off.

[Nils Behrens] (3:30 - 3:31)
All right.

 

[Luuk Melisse] (3:31 - 3:39)
So for me, the resting days are super important, but they are not bound by weekdays in my case.

[Nils Behrens] (3:39 - 3:59)
Yeah, I could imagine. But I found it quite interesting because I've just seen your breakfast and you were sitting there with your laptop. And I said, oh, you're working here.

You said, yeah, you're enjoying it so much working on Monday to start into the week. So it means in this case, you have a kind of week rhythm, but not in terms of resting days.

[Luuk Melisse] (3:59 - 4:37)
Exactly. So we have multiple departments, of course, at Sanctum. And I am traveling around and I'm hosting retreats, which is often in the weekend.

But I know that on Monday the team wakes up and I quite like that to start the week with our team. But for me, the weekend days are actually the days where I can reflect on things, where I can brainstorm on things and prepare some things as well to make sure that I am ready also for the team and for the new week. So, yes, I do have a certain rhythm that for me, the weekends are more about introspection and work with myself before I start to work with other people on Monday.

[Nils Behrens] (4:38 - 5:07)
We have met some years ago. I think the first time was Tel Aviv, then in Miami. And when I came here to the Soneva Soul Festival, I tried to explain it to my friends and my daughter what is so special about Sanctum.

And honestly, I'm not that sure if I really described it in the right way. So for those who never heard of you, especially our listeners, I'm pretty sure there are some of them that have never heard of Sanctum. How would you describe the experience in your own words?

[Luuk Melisse] (5:09 - 6:13)
I often say I'm just going to go off the marketing script and I'm just going to speak from my heart. For me, Sanctum is a rollercoaster, a rollercoaster of emotions, a rollercoaster of movement, a rollercoaster of communal experience. And for me, the most important thing at Sanctum, before I dive into the sequence itself, is we wanted to create a community of radical self-care and joyful healing.

And we wanted to create a place where we shift energy. And that is, for me, the most important thing, that we are shifting energy. And with that shifting energy, we are inspired by multiple practices and philosophies, from ancient Eastern practices to modern practices.

So it's really a blend of ancient philosophies, practices and wisdom combined with modern elements like electronic music, primal movement, high intensity movement. And with those insights and practices, we created a blend, a sequence where we shift energy. And that is, I think, the most important thing to say about it.

[Nils Behrens] (6:14 - 6:21)
Okay, this sounds really amazing, but what makes a Sanctum session different from a workout, a ceremony or a meditation?

[Luuk Melisse] (6:21 - 7:10)
That's a great question. So for me, Sanctum is everything. And what do I mean with that?

I believe in the three bodies. So I believe that we have a physical body, we have an emotional body and we have an energetic body. And often you go to a certain practice to work on one of those bodies.

You go to a workout to work on your physical body. You do a meditation to work on your energetic body. You go to a pop concert to release your emotional body.

And we wanted to create one experience where we bring all those bodies together. And that is what makes it so powerful. Because we bring all those bodies into one experience.

And that is the feeling of euphoria you feel afterwards. Because you push your physical body, you went inwards and you also were able to express your emotions in a way.

[Nils Behrens] (7:11 - 7:29)
I love it. I love your description. But nevertheless, I think if you have never experienced a class with you, so let's go a little bit more to the description.

What happens during a session? Or maybe we start with a technical detail in the beginning. What are the technical necessities?

[Luuk Melisse] (7:30 - 8:32)
So I just want to make one thing really clear. Often I see people relating to Sanctum who never did Sanctum before. Is it a sect?

Is it like a free movement experience? It's actually super simple. Sanctum is a class.

We call it an experience, but it's a class and it has a sequence. So that means it's not just free movement around. We have multiple chapters, which actually bring you into an elevated state of consciousness.

First chapter of the experience, we empower the body and we push you a little bit. You probably experienced that as well. You go into certain movements and you actually reach a certain stage of exhaustion, discomfort.

That is actually the goal of the first chapter. The second chapter, whilst your body is tired, you go inwards. You go into an active meditation.

And the final chapter is the most cathartic chapter, where it's all about releasing and expressing your emotions. So that is the arch of the class that we go through.

[Nils Behrens] (8:33 - 9:19)
All right. And for the class, I would say one of the signature things is that you're wearing headphones. Yes.

And these headphones, probably some of our listeners know from a silent discotheque. Yes. For me, when I described it on my way here to my daughter, I said, with these headphones and hearing your voice so close into your ear, it's a totally different experience from other classes.

So normally when you have a class, you have someone in the front and he is just shouting and we are the loudspeaker. And it's different. It's totally different.

Because you also have the possibility to whisper.

[Luuk Melisse] (9:20 - 9:20)
Exactly.

[Nils Behrens] (9:20 - 9:22)
And it's like you're whispering into my ear.

[Luuk Melisse] (9:23 - 9:23)
Yes.

[Nils Behrens] (9:23 - 9:26)
And it felt like you were whispering only to my ear.

[Luuk Melisse] (9:26 - 9:26)
Yes.

[Nils Behrens] (9:27 - 9:29)
And this makes it so much more personal.

[Luuk Melisse] (9:30 - 9:30)
Yes.

[Nils Behrens] (9:30 - 9:49)
In a way. And this is what I really like about it. You founded Sanctum together with Gabriel.

Gabriel and you are also a couple, but maybe not to us too romantic, but what brought you to a point where you said, okay, we want to found this company together?

[Luuk Melisse] (9:50 - 9:56)
That's a good question. Gab and I, we met already 11 years ago. So that is a long time ago.

[Nils Behrens] (9:56 - 10:01)
For a gay couple, it's golden wedding, I would say.

[Luuk Melisse] (10:03 - 11:21)
And Gab has a background in marketing. So he worked for quite some big companies and I have a background as an actor and a dancer. I quit my dancing career quite early and I was at a stage where I was exploring new things and I explored some more spiritual practices.

And Gab was more in his golden cage of working in corporate life. But we both got super interested in spiritual practices. So during our holidays, we went to Kundalini Yoga retreats.

We discovered Ayurveda. We discovered meditation. And it started growing on us and we started to ask ourselves, what do we want to do with our life?

Especially for Gab. Do I want to keep on working in a corporate career, working for a big company and literally living in a golden cage? Or do we want to try something else?

Do we maybe want to explore what makes us happy? And that was eventually the birth of Sanctum. So we made quite a courageous choice to step into the unknown and to find out what makes us happy in terms of well-being and classes and sports and meditation.

And can we create our own business out of that?

[Nils Behrens] (11:22 - 11:26)
But was it from the very beginning that you realized that movement can become also something spiritual?

[Luuk Melisse] (11:27 - 12:10)
For me, movement has always been spiritual. So I started my career as a dancer and I did quite some contemporary dancing. So for me, dancing was emotions already.

So that was already the connection that I had. So I understood from the theater perspective that movement is somatic and that movement is emotional. But when I ended up in a fitness scene as a psycho instructor and as a pilates instructor, I totally missed that connection.

And that was for me an insight like, Hey, can we bring the connection that I had with movement to the mass market and not only for dancers? So that was an insight that I wanted to bring into the mass market.

[Nils Behrens] (12:10 - 12:35)
Yeah, I really loved it. And you also mentioned on stage that how you hated that the people coming was looking on their cell phones to the class. Yes.

Not to yours, but the one you were teaching before. And then they finished the class and they're looking directly at the cell phones again. So they're just making the physical exercise before.

So they escape for a moment from the cell phone and going back to the cell phone.

[Luuk Melisse] (12:35 - 12:46)
Yeah. And that is, I think, a thing that we have seen here. We have been attending the Seneval Soul Festival over the last few days.

And every biohacker, every expert actually speaks about one thing. Connection.

[Nils Behrens] (12:47 - 12:47)
Yeah.

[Luuk Melisse] (12:48 - 13:27)
And I have been speaking about the sequence of sanctum. I've been speaking about the chapters, which is all great. But I think the bigger insight of sanctum and what I want to bring into this world is the power of connection.

Making a connection with yourself again and making a connection with the community around you again. And that's why we wear the headphones. You all hear the same sound.

You are isolated, so you're in a safe space. But at the same time, you are connected with maybe 30 people around you, maybe 700 people around you. So that moment of connection and community is so important.

And that's why we use little tools at sanctum. We end up in a circle so you can see everybody.

[Nils Behrens] (13:27 - 13:27)
Yeah.

[Luuk Melisse] (13:27 - 13:47)
You make pairs and you look at a person in the eye. So we incorporate all those little elements to create a community. And because of those elements, we see after a class that people want to stay.

They want to have a chat with the person next to them rather than looking at their phone, what you are describing, what you see in 90% of the sport class.

[Nils Behrens] (13:47 - 13:59)
Yeah. Yeah. In every creative journey, there's a mistake.

What were some early missteps or lessons that you have shaped into Sanctum's identity?

[Luuk Melisse] (14:00 - 15:33)
Oh, my God. We made so many mistakes. I think one of the biggest learnings is people.

To really work with the right people. One thing I learned is to really follow your intuition when hiring people. A person can have the amazing resume and everything actually fits well with the role, but you still feel there's something off.

And every time I hired that person, it didn't end up well. And the moment where you find your intuition and you feel, well, I don't know why, but I think this might be a good match. It always worked out well.

So that has been one learning. And the other learning is if you make a choice about the model of your company or the model of our company, is that choice based on ego or is that choice based on a bigger service in this world? I'll give you an example.

For the first years, we were really attached to open up a physical studio because we wanted to have something that was ours. And the moment I realized that it was actually an ego-driven need, that was the moment where I let that go. And because of that, we were able to create a nomadic model where we actually are asset light, which actually works really well for us.

So those are learnings I had, I think, about Sanctum.

[Nils Behrens] (15:33 - 16:36)
It's so interesting when you're telling me that, because we were at Sunday Natural. So many people ask, why don't we have a physical shop? And when you see how many new customers we have every day, so let's say some thousands every day new customers, imagine what impact a physical shop has.

Almost nothing. So it's just for your ego that you have the feeling that it is a flagship or something like that. And then it's also, you have to pay rent, and the employees are not coming maybe on time, they're getting ill, they're not making the right consultation, because it's pretty hard to have 1,800 products, to be an expert on every product.

And so it is so interesting what you're telling, that you have to take some decisions, you have to look from your ego perspective, you really have to see, is it necessary? Does it bring your mission to the next level? Yes or no?

And that's really, really interesting.

[Luuk Melisse] (16:36 - 17:21)
And it forces you to think outside of the box, and that is one thing we did with Sanctum, and hopefully you can see that as well. We call ourselves a disruptor in the market, and not to just disrupt, but to think about things in a different way. And we were thinking about wellness and well-being.

Well, that's a scene that you have been very active in. We thought, can we make it more sexy? Can we make it more ugly?

Can we make it more raw? Because wellness was always about a beautiful spa, crystals, healing music. Can we also use techno music and rock music?

Is that also healing? So I think it's really interesting to think outside of the box, and staying close to your values, but within those values, think outside of the box.

[Nils Behrens] (17:21 - 17:50)
I think this is a really important thing you are talking about, because you are motivating your class to dance more ugly, to dance like nobody is watching. Which, in a way, because they are the class which is watching, makes you a little bit more vulnerable. And maybe this is the reason why you feel so connected afterwards, because you are just dancing like nobody is watching, but it makes the other people kind of in a circle.

[Luuk Melisse] (17:50 - 18:11)
Exactly. And that is the experience that I had as a dancer, was I could express all the feelings I had. The beautiful feelings, but also the feelings that I would label as negative.

And I think that is a problem that we are facing now in this world. We have a strive for perfection.

[Nils Behrens] (18:11 - 18:11)
Yeah.

[Luuk Melisse] (18:11 - 18:37)
And everything needs to be perfect. And I think that is a big root of most of the problems we have. So, I wanted to create a space with the sanctum where we can express everything we are.

And that can also be the anger, that can also be the grief, that can also be sadness. And that is why I say make it ugly. Because that triggers people to not strive for perfection and to just move as they are.

[Nils Behrens] (18:37 - 18:44)
I can tell you and I have a proof that all the pictures which have taken from me during the class are ugly.

[Luuk Melisse] (18:45 - 18:50)
I disagree. They are really beautiful news. I know what you mean.

[Nils Behrens] (18:52 - 19:04)
You call sanctum a cathartic experience. How do you find catharsis in the context of movement and what signs tell you it is truly happening for someone?

[Luuk Melisse] (19:04 - 20:30)
So, I have been exploring many, many practices and I am still exploring. I call myself still a dummy in terms of every single world. I am curious and I want to learn more.

But the more I studied spiritual practices, the more I found a few key elements that you can find back in practices like Kundalini Yoga, Shamanism, Martial Arts. And one of the key elements is, for instance, repetition. Doing the same move over and over again.

You see it in certain rituals. You see it in dancing. You see it in offerings.

You see it in chants. The power of using the voice comes back in multiple practices as well. And the power of music.

And the power of breathing. So, we brought those key elements together and that is why you see it in sanctum. We do the same move over and over and over again.

And it brings you into a certain state of trance. And I even want to say that hopefully in the future we can put some glasses on our head and we can do some brain studies. I can imagine that during a sanctum experience you also change your brain state.

Going from beta into alpha. So, through those key elements of repetition, breath, music, and voice I think we go into a different state of mind. A different state of being out of our monkey mind.

And I would call that cathartic.

[Nils Behrens] (20:31 - 21:05)
Yeah, it's really interesting. It really leads me to my next question because I've read an interview with you. So, for sure, I also experienced that sound is one of your central things in your sessions.

So, the headphones, the sound design. What about the frequency? In this interview you were talking about the frequency 528 hertz which is, I think, the loud frequency.

Is it really that you are selecting your beats, your sound, your music by frequencies?

[Luuk Melisse] (21:05 - 21:58)
Yes, we do that. We not only do that, but we use elements of that. So, for me, every class I teach is a different class. So, every occasion is a different occasion.

And you know, a sanctum experience always has a theme. And the theme is not Happy Friday. The theme is not summer body.

The theme is the power of detachment. The power of love. And for every theme we create our whole class.

We create the movement. We create the music. And indeed, at some themes I use a certain binaural beat which activates confidence.

Or we use a certain healing frequency. Like a certain megahertz. So, for us music, for me music is really important.

But from all levels. From an emotional level, from the lyrics, from the frequencies. So, I would like to incorporate all those elements when I create a playlist.

[Nils Behrens] (21:58 - 22:20)
Yeah, I also really like the music you are mixing with the voice from Ellen Woz. So, this is really nice. Because on the one hand we are listening to your voice.

But sometimes it is also nice that someone else is talking to you. And especially Ellen Woz. She has really some intelligent thoughts to share.

[Luuk Melisse] (22:20 - 22:20)
Exactly.

[Nils Behrens] (22:21 - 22:40)
Yeah, I really like that. And you mentioned that sanctums very often take places in a sacred or monumental space. So, churches, deserts, ruins, glaciers.

I have seen yesterday some pictures or some videos from a glacier. We did it just on a sandbank.

[Luuk Melisse] (22:40 - 22:43)
Just on a sandbank? Oh, you mean just on a sandbank.

[Nils Behrens] (22:44 - 22:58)
Yeah. So, three days, four days ago it was the opening of the Soneva Soul Festival. So, why is the choice of location so powerful?

And what changes when you bring the practice outdoor or into nature?

[Luuk Melisse] (22:59 - 23:45)
Yeah, I believe that every element of an experience is a part of it. So, the sound you hear, the smell, the scent, what you see, the location. So, for us it is important that every element makes sense and every element is inspirational.

And that is why we never host sanctum in a boring sports studio with the TL light above you. We always try to host it in places which have a story. So, it can be churches in Amsterdam and London where we host daily experiences.

It can be indeed a desert or a glacier. So, we really believe in creating the most spectacular locations with every single element involved.

[Nils Behrens] (23:46 - 24:27)
I really have to tell the story. For me it was so funny when we have been in Tel Aviv. We first started at the terrace of the hotel.

It was a Hilton Hotel which is very close to the beach. Then we walked down. It was a kind of mindful walk down to the beach.

And then we had this last session, last part at the beach. And I still remember when you said, and now dance. Dance like an angry teenager.

Dance like nobody is watching. And everybody was watching. The whole strip was full of people.

And they were looking at us like we are totally stupid because we had this silent disco. Nobody was listening to the music. And it must have looked really, really funny.

[Luuk Melisse] (24:28 - 24:30)
And I think it's the first time we met there.

[Nils Behrens] (24:30 - 24:30)
Yeah, definitely.

[Luuk Melisse] (24:31 - 24:32)
It's already two years ago.

[Nils Behrens] (24:33 - 24:44)
Your guides are not traditional fitness coaches. They are, I would say, storytellers or emotional anchors. So, how do you select and train them to hold the Sanctum space responsibly?

[Luuk Melisse] (24:44 - 25:56)
So, at Sanctum people are everything. We offer a service. We offer an experience.

And that is guided by our guides. We created the Sanctum Academy. And we already learned from a very early stage that the Sanctum Academy and the quality of the classes is super, super important.

So, it is a six-day intensive where I work with potential talent. You were saying that, rightly, I am looking for storytellers. I'm not looking for a sports instructor that has the most beautiful moves.

I'm looking for somebody who can inspire audiences with their voice. And of course, they need to move, they need to know music, etc. So, there's quite some criteria in order to become a Sanctum guide.

During the Academy, I think two things are really important. The first one is learning everything about the sequence, the timing, the moves. I call that your driver license.

So, every guide, they need to get their driver license. They know what to do at which moment. But the second thing we focus on is what is their voice.

Because I'm not looking for a copycat.

[Nils Behrens] (25:56 - 26:28)
This is really exactly what I just had in mind. Because I experienced for the first time a Sanctum class with Abdullah, which is one of your trainer, teacher, whatever. But I couldn't imagine what it would be without Luuk.

I couldn't describe it better. Because what I have experienced with Abdullah wasn't a copycat of Luuk. You still see the signature of Sanctum, but in a totally different experience.

[Luuk Melisse] (26:29 - 27:06)
And that is for us super, super important. So, next to the driver license, they learn everything around storytelling, core values, and they do a lot of demos. And we really focus on what is your unique talent and what message do you want to share in this class.

Because if that message is authentic, it always becomes a unique and authentic experience. And of course, we want to scale up in Sanctum and certain things need to be the same. But it needs to be always a unique and authentic experience.

So, that's why I really focus on how can our guides within the framework can tell their own story and make it personal.

[Nils Behrens] (27:09 - 27:21)
When you look at the wellness trends, they are focusing very much on optimization. So, how do you keep Sanctum, human, messy, emotional, real in a world obsessed with metrics and perfection?

[Luuk Melisse] (27:21 - 27:56)
I think that is exactly what our sequence is about. Our sequence is about letting go. Our sequence is about, we have a little bit more ugly movements, right?

Some movements that feel a little bit weird. Some music that makes you maybe a little bit angry if you listen to it. So, for us, our main goal is that the moment when you put your headphones on, you dive into your own world where everything is possible and where you can do everything you like.

So, in a world dominated by perfection, I think it's really much needed to have those moments where you can finally express yourself.

[Nils Behrens] (27:57 - 28:23)
It's really so interesting because the headphones are so relevant. And I must personally say, I experienced now four days in a row, and every day I really don't want to get rid of my headphones. Take them off.

Take them off because I love to stay into this, let's say, different world and different state of mind. And it is always a sad moment in a way to get rid of the headphones.

[Luuk Melisse] (28:23 - 28:25)
Well, it happens a lot that people take their headphones home.

[Nils Behrens] (28:26 - 28:26)
Oh, really?

[Luuk Melisse] (28:26 - 28:28)
Yeah, but it doesn't work at home.

[Nils Behrens] (28:28 - 28:28)
No, no.

[Luuk Melisse] (28:28 - 28:30)
If you are trying to take them home, it's not going to work.

[Nils Behrens] (28:33 - 28:42)
How do you hold space for that emotional vulnerability or how do you personally recover after leading something so intense?

[Luuk Melisse] (28:44 - 29:22)
So, you're asking two questions. I think the first question is about the participants. For me, it's really important that I teach an authentic experience which moves people, which is inspired by many practices and philosophies.

And in the end, it's the sanctum sequence. But I am not a therapist. And that is for me a very important one.

So, yes, there is a tear. There are some emotions. But it's not a trauma release class.

So, I just want to make that really clear as well that we don't put ourselves in a box where we say, well, if you want to work on your trauma, you go to sanctum. No, I don't think. I think sanctum is really helpful.

[Nils Behrens] (29:22 - 29:26)
Not giving away mushrooms or something else because you're from Amsterdam. I don't know.

[Luuk Melisse] (29:26 - 30:48)
No, we don't give away mushrooms in class. So, for us, it's important that we activate you, that we shift your energy, but that it's not a full trauma release class. I think there are other spaces for that if you really are looking for that.

How do I protect my own energy? I always make sure that I have a ritual before the experience that I close down my energy. Well, actually, before the experience, I open up my energy.

So, I just do a visualization. I visualize that from my heart I expand and I'm able to receive. I'm able to receive all the information because I believe that I'm a vessel and that inspiration comes from the outside.

We have been speaking about this over dinner, by the way. And after the experience, I make sure I close the energy again. So, those are like little practices I have for myself and I put into place.

And I make sure that when I host bigger classes, I have moments where I'm alone. And that is one thing I've really realized over the last years. The more I am with people, the more I also need my downtime.

And that means being totally alone, not speaking with anybody and just be able to wind down energetically.

[Nils Behrens] (30:49 - 31:07)
And especially when you have these intense weekends like we had here now at the Soul Festival, it really felt like a big family. And when you say, okay, you need some time afterwards to be completely alone, do you ever have a kind of loneliness feeling then?

[Luuk Melisse] (31:08 - 31:11)
Good question. I sometimes feel alone, yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (31:13 - 31:42)
I'm a little bit afraid, to be honest, to go back home. Fortunately, my daughter is joining me. But when she's also left, I'm pretty sure that there will be a moment where, even if I can be by myself very good, but nevertheless, I could imagine that after this intense communication, connection, community experience, I'm pretty sure I will have some feeling of loneliness afterwards.

[Luuk Melisse] (31:43 - 31:57)
Well, I actually, I can be alone perfectly fine. So I don't, I actually, I feel more alone. And it sounds really weird.

I feel like I can feel more alone when I'm with people rather than when I'm fully alone.

[Nils Behrens] (31:57 - 31:58)
Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Luuk Melisse] (31:58 - 32:20)
And especially because when you host a sanctum experience, you are leading a group, right? So you're not necessarily a part of that group. So that creates already a difference between you and the participants, which is natural.

If you are a speaker at a conference, you have a different relationship with the audience. It's not a status thing. It's just a different relationship.

[Nils Behrens] (32:20 - 32:48)
It's different.

Because sometimes it could be really exhausting if you are participating too much. So in your case, maybe it's different from my case, because you are more leading a class. In my case, I'm sharing knowledge.

And so people ask me hundreds of questions afterwards. And this is why I love to do it. But after a while, I also feel drained in a way.

[Luuk Melisse] (32:49 - 32:58)
And which practices do you have to not feel drained after those very intense conferences, experiences?

[Nils Behrens] (32:59 - 33:32)
I think also meditation. Meditation is really an important thing for me. Breathwork, meditation, and also sports.

For me, I've been a runner for more than 20 years. And for me, also running is a kind of meditation, honestly. We just run this morning around the island.

And then at the very end, we make a run. So Abdullah and I see who will be the first one on the jetty. And you see how much stress it relieves in that moment.

It's really good.

[Luuk Melisse] (33:32 - 33:32)
Yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (33:35 - 33:43)
If you had to summarize the philosophy of Sanctum in just one sentence, what would it be?

[Luuk Melisse] (33:47 - 33:54)
Sanctum is a community where you are able to connect with yourself and others again on a physical, emotional, and energetic level.

[Nils Behrens] (33:56 - 34:14)
I would say that's pretty good on point. So the wellness space is very crowded. It goes from ice bars to biohacking.

We also have seen on these last days a huge variety. What do you see as a Sanctum unique contribution to the future of wellness?

[Luuk Melisse] (34:15 - 35:18)
That's a very good one. I am a big believer that there are many streams happening. And there is so much information.

So I'm not saying this is the only thing. But I think one very important element, and I see it's a movement which is happening, is communal wellness. Back in the days, the spa industry was only focusing on individual wellness.

You go to a massage, you get your spa, you get your treatment. It's you, you, you, which is amazing and great. But we live in a time where we have an urge for connection.

We don't connect with other people as much anymore. And that's why I see a movement which we are just a part of, of communal wellness. You see sauna raves happening in New York.

You see Daybreaker, a huge sober festival. And you see Sanctum. And that is, I think, the reason why we work with so many hospitality brands.

Because I think that hospitality brands start to feel that. They feel like, what is the next step in wellness? And one of those elements is communal wellness.

[Nils Behrens] (35:18 - 36:23)
It's quite interesting. When I lived in Hamburg, I was one of the lecturers at Fresenius. And I was running a class about trends and innovation in tourism.

And there was always one of my trends I was talking about is social wellness. Because you see that it is really emerging everywhere, all over the world. And it started with run clubs.

But now, like you said, sauna events. There are so many things, cooking classes, things like that. But I would say maybe the biggest trend I see in Berlin right now is really running classes.

So, it is really, I would say, I can't count them. I'm pretty sure that we have in Berlin more than 40 run classes. Run clubs.

So, everyone is organizing a run club. So, it is really interesting. Behind the beauty, there is also a business.

So, what were the hardest practical challenges for you? Logistics, finance or scaling? Yeah.

[Luuk Melisse] (36:23 - 36:31)
So, we started Sanctum very organically. So, we didn't have any investors. It was just Gab and me.

[Nils Behrens] (36:32 - 36:33)
Completely bootstrapped.

[Luuk Melisse] (36:33 - 37:38)
Completely bootstrapped. Gab was still working, I was still working because we had to pay ourselves somehow. We were cleaning the mats.

We were answering the customer service. We were creating a software system for scheduling. So, that is really how we started.

We grew quite fast and I'm super happy that we grew that way because I know how every department works. And I know how the daily work goes. The biggest challenge has been operations for us.

So, I think in terms of the experience, we are doing quite well. In terms of branding, we really know where we stand. We can always learn, of course.

But the biggest challenge has been operations. How can you make sure that in a nomadic model, every class is a pop-up experience, right? Where you have to bring headphones, where you have to bring mats, where you have to make sure that every experience is the same.

So, for us, the biggest challenge has been how can every single experience globally be the same with it being a pop-up event.

[Nils Behrens] (37:40 - 37:40)
Same, same but different.

[Luuk Melisse] (37:41 - 37:53)
Same, same but different. So, our operational process is quite complex. And we had to invest a lot of time, resource and money in order to make that run smoothly.

[Nils Behrens] (37:53 - 38:02)
Okay, I could imagine that. Looking ahead three to five years, what's your vision for the next chapter of Sanctum?

[Luuk Melisse] (38:03 - 38:39)
I'm going to be quite bold because I know that you attract what you say. I want Sanctum to be a new category in the market. So, it's not just a class, it becomes a category.

Like Hyrox. Yeah, think about Zumba or Hyrox. That people say, wow, that is Sanctum.

It's a lifestyle. So, for me, that will be the next step. And that is through a digital platform, which we're going to launch in a few months.

Through our frequency festivals, through our daily experiences, through our scale-up model. I want Sanctum to be a global community, which really becomes a category of its own.

[Nils Behrens] (38:39 - 38:57)
I'm really looking forward to experiencing my first Sanctum class in Berlin. Or Hamburg, I don't know. For someone listening who wants to bring more, let's say, intention and emotion into their daily movement.

What's one simple practice you could recommend they start with tomorrow morning?

[Luuk Melisse] (38:59 - 39:49)
I can come with you by giving meditation options or movement options, which work really, really well. But I'm going to change it around a little bit today. I think, wouldn't it be great to give yourself a moment of joy?

Because we tend to take ourselves so seriously in everything we do. We are looking for the best supplements. We are looking for the right meditation.

And we are constantly improving our life, which is great. But are you giving yourself joy as well? So, I would advise you or challenge you to do something you really like to do.

And maybe it is putting on a Freddie Mercury track in the morning and start dancing. Maybe it is watching your favorite comedian or whatever it is. Give yourself maybe a moment of joy throughout your day.

[Nils Behrens] (39:49 - 40:38)
It is so funny that you are mentioning that, because when I'm holding my speeches, I'm always telling the people how important it is to have the same sleep routines. Going to bed at the same time and waking up at the same time. And life is for living.

So, that means when you are invited to a birthday party or having a nice dinner, for sure you can, let's say, postpone it a little bit. But what I'm saying to the people is, don't postpone it because of Netflix. Just because it's Friday night, just because normally you are used to go to bed at, let's say, 10 p.m. And now you, I don't know, go to bed at 1 a.m. or let's say 12 o'clock. You move your needle by two hours just watching television. It's so stupid.

[Luuk Melisse] (40:38 - 40:39)
It has to be worth it.

 

[Nils Behrens] (40:40 - 41:22)
It's not worth it at all. But what I recommend to the people, if you really say, no, but I don't know what to do at 6 o'clock. Because normally I wake up at 6 o'clock in the morning.

I don't know what to do at 6 o'clock in the morning on a Saturday. I said, why don't you binge watch Saturday morning? Because it really, for me, I do it not very often, but sometimes.

And it felt a little bit like the parents are not at home. Because for us it was totally forbidden to watch television early in the morning. No go.

And so, for me, I must say, when I'm sometimes watching television early in the morning, first I really have to laugh about myself. It brings me kind of joy because I have the feeling that I'm doing something prohibited.

[Luuk Melisse] (41:22 - 41:24)
You feel like a rebel.

[Nils Behrens] (41:25 - 41:26)
Totally, totally rebel.

[Luuk Melisse] (41:26 - 41:30)
That's it for Saturday morning.

You are a rebellious man.

[Nils Behrens] (41:31 - 41:48)
Totally. Luuk, thank you very much for the interview. It was so much fun.

So, for all listeners who want to learn more, they can go on the website. The website is wearesanctum.com. Exactly.

Furthermore, they can also follow you on Instagram. They can see the upcoming retreats.

[Luuk Melisse] (41:48 - 41:48)
Yes.

[Nils Behrens] (41:48 - 41:50)
Learn a little bit more also about the Sanctum Academy.

[Luuk Melisse] (41:51 - 41:51)
Exactly.

[Nils Behrens] (41:51 - 41:58)
And I'm also pretty sure they will be informed when you're following on Instagram about the app which is coming.

[Luuk Melisse] (41:58 - 42:24)
Exactly. So, we have daily experiences in Amsterdam, London and Dubai with an amazing team of local guides. We have international retreats and frequency festivals happening.

And I can't wait to share more about the launch of our digital application. And I want to thank you, Nils. And I also wanted to take a moment to have a look around here, sitting barefoot, doing a podcast, overlooking the ocean.

Our life is good.

[Nils Behrens] (42:25 - 42:29)
Gratefulness and gratitude is so important. Thank you.

[Luuk Melisse] (42:29 - 42:30)
Thank you so much.

[Nils Behrens] (42:30 - 42:35)
Do you have a favorite supplement?

[Luuk Melisse] (42:36 - 43:02)
Well, we were speaking a lot about supplements and there were a lot of speakers. And I'm not an expert at all. So, I just follow the smart people.

But the one thing that works for me really well and which I see is backed up by science over and over again is creatine. So, I take it every morning and every evening. So, it's not just for bodybuilders.

It also helps your cognitive functions. So, that is a supplement I won't live without.

[Nils Behrens] (43:29 - 43:29)
Thank you.