FOBO - Fear of Better Options

Adrienne Adhami is an internationally renowned wellbeing coach, author, and keynote speaker. She is the host of the successful podcasts Power Hour and Modern Wellness Podcast, where she inspires people to unlock their potential and live more mindfully.

As a sought-after brand consultant, Adrienne works with major companies such as Apple, Spotify, Bupa, and Range Rover. Her focus lies in wellbeing technology, innovation strategies, and the intersection of high performance and mindfulness. Through her workshops and lectures, she provides practical guidance on how conscious decision-making, mental clarity, and targeted routines can lead to greater energy and life satisfaction.

Her first book, Power Hour, was published in 2020 and has been translated into four languages. In her latest work, Decisions That Matter, she dedicates herself to the art of decision-making—exploring how we can set priorities, build trust, and act with clarity in a world full of endless possibilities.

More about Adrienne Adhami: https://adrienneadhami.com

[Adrienne Adhami] (0:00 - 0:30)

Because it's the fear of a better option. And this is what holds people back from making a decision at all, so procrastination. So they think, okay, I need to decide about this. I'm not so sure. I can't make up my mind. So I'm going to give it another week. I'm going to think about it a bit more. Maybe I'm going to talk to somebody else. I'm going to give it another month and on and on and on. And six months later, they haven't made any choice at all. They haven't chosen to make the change or not make the change. They're just still kind of in this treading water with the decision. So this often is fear of a better option.

[Nils Behrens] (0:31 - 1:45)

Welcome to HealthWise, the health and longevity podcast brought to you by Sunday Natural. I'm Nils Behrens and in this podcast, we explore what it truly means to be healthy. Together, we will dive into topics such as medicine, exercise, nutrition, and emotional well-being, always with a wise perspective on what generally benefits us. We live in an age of infinite choices. So what to eat, who to love, how to live. But more options don't always mean more freedom. So sometimes the hardest thing is the simple decision what really matters. I'm recording this conversation here from the Soneva Soul Festival on the Maldives. We are surrounded by ocean, sunlight, and people who think deeply about how to live intentionally. And today we are talking about just that, how to make better decisions in a noisy world. Adrienne Adhami is a writer, speaker, and consultant known for helping people bring clarity and courage to their choices. In her new book Decisions That Matter, she combines psychology, practical tools, and personal stories to show how we can stop overthinking and start living with a purpose. And so I say a warm welcome, Adrienne Adhami.

[Adrienne Adhami] (1:45 - 1:46)

Thank you for having me.

[Nils Behrens] (1:47 - 1:57)

Adrienne, it's Sunday here on the Soneva Soul Festival, a day that often makes us pause. So how do you personally use Sundays to reset or reflect on your decisions?

[Adrienne Adhami] (1:57 - 2:36)

I really like this question because I love Sunday. And in my usual routine, Sunday has nothing in the diary. Every day there's something to do, somewhere to go, somewhere to be. And I try to keep Sunday free. No alarm clock, no specific plan at all. And often when I wake up on Sunday, the first thing I feel is a relief. You know, I can choose anything I want today. I can actually decide how do I feel? What do I need? What do I want? Sometimes that might be to stay home all day. Sometimes that might be to prepare for the week ahead. Other times maybe you can call a friend and have a really long phone call conversation. If they're also free, there's no pressure. I don't look at the clock on Sunday.

[Nils Behrens] (2:36 - 3:02)

It's amazing because I really did this for the first time since we are here, that I really had no appointment this morning and I just slept as long as I want to. And I skipped the breathwork, to be honest. But anyhow, it felt really good just to not waking up with an alarm clock. So I can really feel that. What made you write a book about decision making in the first place? Was there a personal moment of enough is enough?

[Adrienne Adhami] (3:04 - 3:38)

Yeah, so I think I've made some quite bold decisions in my life. And I never realized that they were bold decisions. When somebody else hears a story or hears something about you, they tell you sometimes about yourself. Wow, how did you make that decision? Or how were you so bold? For example, leaving home at the age of 16, which for me was, okay, this is the choice I wanted to make. And I moved from, I was living in West Yorkshire in England and I moved to London. So I had literally one bag and actually had a rolled up poster for my wall. Must have thought that that was essential.

[Nils Behrens] (3:38 - 3:39)

What was it on the poster?

[Adrienne Adhami] (3:40 - 3:42)

Oh, I'm embarrassed to tell you. It was Christina Aguilera.

[Nils Behrens] (3:42 - 3:43)

Oh, okay, nice.

[Adrienne Adhami] (3:44 - 5:57)

This shows the age that I was, 16 years old. I thought this was an essential. And I moved to London. I took a coach. So that's an example of one bold decision. But throughout my life, I think I've trusted myself a lot. I've had confidence to change things, to start things, start projects, start careers, get married, get divorced. I made choices that I felt confident to do. And I know for a lot of people, maybe they don't have that inner confidence and know this is a good choice. So during the pandemic, lots of people, of course, were making big, bold decisions. They had that moment, as you said, to reflect. They were looking around at their new situation for months thinking, do I want to work for this company anymore? Do I want to live with this person and be married to them? Do I want to have this routine or these habits? Does this life that I'm living, now that I have the time to stop and look at it, did I choose this? Or is it like, oh, my mum told me I was good at this, so I did it. Or this person maybe pressured me to stick with this. And actually, I never chose this life. So lots of people, I think, were doing deep thinking during lockdown. And I was delivering lots of workshops online. I was on Zoom every day. And I was speaking to lots of different employees in organisations where I'd previously spoken to them about motivation and productivity and goal setting. But decision making was a new thing that I had added to my presentation. I like to add new things. And lots and lots and lots of people asked me questions about this grid, this framework that I shared. They sent me messages on LinkedIn, emails to say, can you share this grid with me? Because I'm trying to make a big decision in my life. Or maybe I hadn't really thought about how I make decisions until I came to your presentation. And now I want to think more deeply about how I make decisions. So that's when the seed was planted back in 2020. I didn't actually start researching and writing this book until 2022. But that's really where that came from. Understanding there's a universal need. We all have to make decisions, whether we're junior, senior, whether we're leading, whether we're starting. Big decisions, small decisions, we're all doing it. But if we don't do it consciously, if we're not aware of the choices we make, the yeses, the nos, they are also decisions, then often I think we can be influenced in many ways. And when we look back, we think, oh, actually, I didn't choose any of this life.

[Nils Behrens] (5:58 - 6:04)

Yeah, it's very interesting. So there's a frame where the people are saying, how we ended up here.

[Adrienne Adhami] (6:04 - 6:04)

Exactly.

[Nils Behrens] (6:05 - 6:21)

That's exactly what they say. And I also learned, I learned a lot from your book. But what I also like is you write that the word decide comes from decidere, so it means to cut off. What have you learned about the power of letting go?

[Adrienne Adhami] (6:21 - 8:01)

Yes. Well, yes, exactly as you said. So the Latin word, it means to cut off or cut away. So that means when you make a decision, you choose one thing. In order to accept that choice, you have to remember you're discarding every other option. And that could be hundreds of other choices. So when you choose who to marry, when you choose where to live, when you choose the title of your book, there's all these other titles I could have chosen, all these other people I could have met or other places I could have gone. And that can be hard because often we, hindsight means that we'll look back and we'll question and we kind of, some people will ruminate a lot about the choices or decisions. Maybe I should have had this, maybe I should have chosen that. Yesterday, I should have had the salad instead of the soup. You know, they think about these things. And we make up stories of if I did this, everything will be better. Everything will be perfect if I just did this or something. So it's tricky to kind of accept what did you choose? But also, it's also a nice commitment. So when you decide and you choose something, just like when you choose a partner or you choose to pursue something, knowing that in order to do it, you must forsake other things actually is a really, really amazing commitment. And when it comes to goals, which I talk about a lot as well, often people, the reason they don't achieve a big goal is because of the pursuit of lesser goals, the distractions, the easy option. And so it's the same thing when you decide, okay, you can't have 17 priorities. That doesn't make sense. Priority means one, but people will tell me, I have 10 priorities. So if you decide which one, which goal, which priority, which thing are you going to focus on? What do you choose? Then you have to accept that in order to choose that, everything else has to be, maybe not never, but it has to be not now.

[Nils Behrens] (8:02 - 8:15)

But do you think there's a reason why we are overthinking the small decisions so well and we are delaying the big ones so much? Is it really because we are so much focused on not having our priorities right?

[Adrienne Adhami] (8:16 - 8:24)

I think it's because we're overwhelmed. I think it's because to your question, you know, the small decisions we make every day, we make 35,000.

[Nils Behrens] (8:24 - 8:27)

Wow. 35,000 per day.

[Adrienne Adhami] (8:27 - 9:58)

Per day, conscious and unconscious. We have 80,000 unconscious thoughts per day. So 35,000 of them are decisions. So I think the reason we are often weighed down by the small things instead of focusing on, okay, we can't always think deep questions, you know, North star, what is the meaning of my life? These questions are, you know, we can't answer these questions every day, but the small decisions that we do make every day, such as what to do with the first few hours when we wake up, such as what to have for breakfast, such as what to wear, like these kinds of things. I think the reason people ruminate on them and, or maybe this represents more of who I am or what's this going to say about me, or maybe this is just something I didn't even think about it. I just picked it up because it was the closest thing. And it was the easiest option is because we are overwhelmed. There's too much choice and abundance of choice as humans living today. We have never, ever had this much choice. And so it is a blessing and a curse because on the one hand you could say, wow, you can go anywhere and you can be anything you can do anything. So how on earth can you decide what to do? So I think this abundance of choice and through the research that I did for this book, from the psychology and from looking at people's career choices and relationships, unfortunately, the more options we have, the less confident we feel in the decision we make, and also the less satisfied we feel with that choice. So very simple example. If I said to you today in this beautiful place, if I said to you, would you like to have a dessert? Yes or no? Maybe you could tell me. Let's practice. Would you like a dessert? Yes or no?

[Nils Behrens] (9:58 - 10:14)

I can, I can, I can really tell you literally from this lunch, I decided to have just one meal. Then I had dessert. And afterwards I said, ah, no, but this truffle pasta looks so good. And then I had after dessert, the truffle pasta.

[Adrienne Adhami] (10:14 - 10:43)

Okay. Well, this is an exceptional place. But I said, if I said to you, would you like dessert? Yes or no? And you said, yes, that's one option. Now, if I said to you, would you like chocolate ice cream or vanilla? Maybe you could choose. But if I took you to show you 40 different flavors, mango and sorbet and ice cream, and do you want sprinkles and no sprinkles? Would you like a cone? Would you like a cup? Now you have 30 choices. You're going to stand there for a lot longer. And even when you pick your favorite, okay, I'm having the nut ice cream. Maybe I should have had strawberry.

[Nils Behrens] (10:43 - 10:56)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I'm now after being here for almost a week, I decided not to make this choice anymore. I'm taking my two favorite bowls of ice cream. And that's it.

[Adrienne Adhami] (10:56 - 10:58)

Yes. I'm not trying anything else.

[Nils Behrens] (10:59 - 11:28)

There's 30 different flavors. So and I decided not to be disappointed anymore. I decided to take the two I really like. It's coconut and salted caramel and full stop. But what I also realized, because we are now heading the end of our journey, and so most of my clothes are worn. So that means the decision what to wear today is also much more limited than it was in the beginning.

[Adrienne Adhami] (11:28 - 12:07)

Yeah, and these might sound like, you know, mundane, small, silly things, okay, what ice cream to choose what to wear. But really, these decisions that we're making every single day is still taking cognitive power, so taking energy to decide. Some people famously, like Steve Jobs, Barack Obama, they would have a set capsule wardrobe of the same clothes. So why would somebody like Barack Obama decides to wear the same suit with the same shirt with the same tie, he could have every suit. But because he knew and understood that our energy and our capacity for decision making is finite. So by not having to choose that in the morning, he's not only saving time, but he's saving the energy, the brain space to work on more important things.

[Nils Behrens] (12:07 - 12:28)

But on the other hand, you are describing in your book that decision making is a skill that can be trained. So that means he hasn't trained this decision making anymore. But my question is more, how can we what is the first step to getting a better skill in decision making?

[Adrienne Adhami] (12:28 - 12:57)

Yes, and it is a skill and we can practice and we can learn any skill through deliberate practice and repetition, we can improve. So I would say when it comes to decision making, how do we practice that skill? The first thing is awareness, being aware that you're even making a choice. So when people ask you requests is a good one. So invitations, requests, maybe personal or maybe professional. If your instant feeling is you always say yes, sometimes people say I'm a people pleaser, just say yes, and then figure it out later. But actually, I didn't really want to go to that.

[Nils Behrens] (12:57 - 14:03)

It's interesting, because I know your presentation you had two days before, or yesterday, I think it was yesterday. You also said people tend to say yes, so quickly. And being in a resort like this, I'm tending to say very often no, because I don't want to make the effort. You know what I mean? Because I'm not used that everything is so service oriented. So and I realized when you say that the people are used to say yes, very quickly, I realized that I say no very quickly. And afterwards, I regret and said, yeah, but it would have been nice. So for example, all the returning guests having a sign on the bicycle with a name. I love it. And I asked our assistant, how do I get this sign? And they said, it's only for the repeating guests. But I can make an exception and can make you a sign. I said, no, never mind. And now every day, I'm looking at the bicycles with a name and saying, what have you said? Never mind. You would have loved to have your bicycle with your name.

[Adrienne Adhami] (14:03 - 15:47)

Yeah, exactly. So sometimes it's too quickly, as you said, too quickly. So same way, either yes or no, either because you maybe want to be polite, or sometimes people say they want to be agreeable. So yeah, okay, I can come or yes, I can take on that project. Or yeah, I don't mind if you come and stay that tomorrow. And then they come in to stay tomorrow, you know, they really did want to say no, or they just didn't think it through. So the first thing is intentionality, be aware that you are making a choice when you say yes, when you say no, when you agree or disagree, you are you are making a decision. So awareness is first. The second thing I would say about kind of this practice of how we make decisions is to, I guess, to ask yourself, when you think about how you make decisions, typically, do you think more analytically? Are you somebody think about your personality, the subjects you liked in school? Do you like to kind of weigh up with numbers? Are you somebody who likes statistics and percentages? Because if you are and puzzles problem solving, you might be more of an analytical decision maker. So you're going to maybe compare and contrast. Some people are much more in the body in the creative, they might say they actually much more making decisions based on a feeling intuition, gut feeling. Now, the question often is, well, which is better? Actually, the research that I did shows that you need both. And ultimately, you can never make right or perfect decision. Maybe we can talk about that later. But to feel confident about the decisions you make, you need both. You need some analysis and some intuition. OK, I did the time to look at the options. But you ultimately do have to feel the decision too and you can't squash or talk somebody out of that feeling. The feeling tells them no, but they think oh come on, you should do it. This is why. And you talk yourself in. And then when you dread it or you resent the commitment, you know, but you didn't listen.

[Nils Behrens] (15:48 - 16:13)

It is so funny when you explaining it. I remember many years ago, 25 years ago, on the invitation for our marriage. So for our wedding, we were thinking because it was and we were in our mid 20s and we had so many friends and we were pretty sure that people were offended sometimes when they're not invited.

[Adrienne Adhami] (16:14 - 16:14)

Yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (16:14 - 16:33)

So and then I introduced a model of circles. So that means you have a circle where you say, OK, these are friends on the same inner line. So and then you have another line and another line. And then we were all the friends we put into the circles.

[Adrienne Adhami] (16:33 - 16:33)

Yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (16:33 - 16:58)

And when we said, OK, but when we invite one of these persons on the third circle, you have to fill up the whole circle. Otherwise, the other people in the circle would be offended. And at the end, we ended up not to follow completely to this model. OK, because at the very end, we felt, no, but it feels so right if Marco also joins the wedding.

[Adrienne Adhami] (16:58 - 17:00)

Right. So to make an exception.

[Nils Behrens] (17:00 - 17:27)

Yeah, we make an exception at the end. But exactly like I said, we started in an analytical way. But at the end, we also said we have a decision from our heart or from our gut feeling or whatever that we said no. But for us, this is important that this person also joins. It's exactly like I said, it is a combination. You are writing about in your book that we are facing high stakes, low stakes or no stakes decisions. Why does it matter?

[Adrienne Adhami] (17:28 - 17:51)

Well, because a high stakes decision is exactly as it sounds. It's very impactful. So the knock on effect is going to be potentially quite big for better or for worse. It could impact you now, but also in the future as well. So an example of a high stakes decision is the decision to have a child. It's not something you can maybe reverse because you change your mind, you know, or a high stakes decision, something like selling your company or relocating to another country.

[Nils Behrens] (17:51 - 17:56)

You know, it's something that really you moving to London was just interesting. Yeah, exactly.

[Adrienne Adhami] (17:57 - 19:02)

Exactly. You have to think these things through. But a low stakes decision is something that you make very frequently and is typically reversible. So, you know, it's kind of easy to change your mind and reverse the decision. So and then a no stakes decision is essentially, I mean, it doesn't matter at all. Sometimes the things that we are thinking about might be silly, but like painting your downstairs bathroom, 12 different colors, we've got to go and test them and patch and look. And does this really represent the feeling that I want to have in the downstairs bathroom? Really, it doesn't matter. Like it doesn't matter. It's life of course, but we still put energy there. So I think it's important to look and say, actually, is this a low stakes decision? Is this a high stakes decision? And the most important thing, really, that I want people to understand is that even though high stakes sounds like, oh, that must be so important, the low stakes decisions that you make every day, times it by seven times by weeks, times by months, times by years. Sometimes you make this a thousand times. Those low stakes decisions compound and we know the effects of compounding. It really adds up and that can be so powerful for better or for worse. Food.

[Nils Behrens] (19:02 - 19:06)

Food is a very good example. I think you mentioned about the cinnamon bun.

[Adrienne Adhami] (19:06 - 19:18)

Cinnamon bun. One cinnamon bun, it's not going to change your health, right? Maybe your glucose for a few hours, but it's not going to change your health, health outcomes, your life. But one cinnamon bun every single day is going to have a big impact on your health.

[Nils Behrens] (19:19 - 19:38)

Definitely. I'm pretty sure that some of my listeners are really disappointed to hear that I'm eating ice cream every day right now, but at the moment I'm here, it is so delicious and I'm still convinced that life is for living. And so, yeah, nevermind. Nevermind, I have this ice cream.

[Adrienne Adhami] (19:39 - 20:16)

But that's one week too. So if you zoom out of your life, that's one week. It's not every day. And same with other habits. So maybe that would be a negative habit. But if you think about a positive thing, like sometimes people will tell me, oh, Adrienne, I bought your book and it's been sitting on my shelf for a few months because I'm so busy and I really want to pick it up and read it. If they said, I'm going to read 10 pages every day or one chapter, even if you said to somebody, I'm going to read one chapter a day in one year, how many books could you read? How many new ideas? How many things could you? And it doesn't have to be, I don't have time to read the whole book, but that small, low stakes decision to pick up 10 pages over the course of your life, how much knowledge you would learn?

[Nils Behrens] (20:17 - 21:03)

So, for example, I'm currently working on my first book and I'm also, I would say the longest chapter is maybe five pages. So that you, but I also have a lot of chapters, which are probably just two pages. So, and I think exactly for people like that, just grabbing the book in the evening, maybe just reading these two or three pages. Because I personally see that, especially when you're not having a, when you have a nonfiction book, that's so easy to consume. And just to, to, like you said, small portions every day, and maybe you have one or two chapters, but I personally like to consume knowledge like that.

[Adrienne Adhami] (21:03 - 21:04)

Yeah. I like that style too.

[Nils Behrens] (21:04 - 21:13)

And, and so, yeah, you're using the metaphor of traffic lights, so red, amber, green for decisions. Can you explain to our listeners a little more of this framework?

[Adrienne Adhami] (21:14 - 21:58)

Yes. Yeah. So with the traffic light, because it's such a visual thing, it's the description that it basically helps kind of direct you. So for example, when you see a red light, you have to stop. Okay. Of course you have to, you have to pause, you have to reflect, you have to wait. Amber, it's kind of like, you know, maybe give it a second glance and green is just good to go. So that's kind of, again, with the high stakes, low stakes, no stakes, it's just kind of a visual thing for some people to see, which is like high stakes. It's red. You need to take your time. You can't say yes instantly because somebody asked you and they told you it's urgent. You know, do you ever get this maybe through work or an email? Something's urgent. You have to tell me now, can you do this? If it's very important, then it's not urgent. If it's important, you should take your time. And if it's urgent, then act quickly. But that's just a visual for the high stakes, low stakes, no stakes.

[Nils Behrens] (21:59 - 22:10)

Yeah, I love it. I love it. And what I even love more is this term, this acronym I learned from you, FOBO, the fear of better options.

[Adrienne Adhami] (22:11 - 22:13)

Yes. Yes. Shall I explain?

[Nils Behrens] (22:13 - 22:14)

Yes, please.

[Adrienne Adhami] (22:14 - 23:30)

Okay. So many listeners I'm sure will have heard of FOMO, the fear of missing out. It's when we're looking, thinking everybody's having fun and I'm missing out. So FOBO, I feel like because it sounds the same, it's kind of similar. Maybe it could be related, but it's a little bit different because it's the fear of a better option. And this is what holds people back from making a decision at all. So procrastination. So they think, okay, I need to decide about this. I'm not so sure. I can't make up my mind. So I'm going to give it another week. I'm going to think about it a bit more. Maybe I'm going to talk to somebody else. I'm going to give it another month and on and on and on. And six months later, they haven't made any choice at all. They haven't chosen to make the change or not make the change. They're just still kind of in this treading water with the decision. So this often is fear of a better option, because if I choose and I commit, we talked about this cutting away and commitment. If I choose this car, let's say I've shopped around and I choose this one, then someone's going to drive past. Maybe I should have got that car. That's a better option. They could have waited. Or even with a job, with a career, sometimes people they're looking and they're waiting and they're waiting because something better might just come along tomorrow, but maybe it won't. So fear of a better option. I think it holds many people back. And when I tell people that they go, I know what you mean, because I do that.

[Nils Behrens] (23:32 - 24:41)

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. And sometimes I also have good examples where I regret it, really. Because, for example, I don't know if you know from Charles Eames, there's this typical plastic chair. You don't know them? It's a typical designer chair from a furniture designer. His name is Charles Eames. And these plastic chairs, I'm pretty sure when you see it, they're quite iconic. But there are different varieties. So there's one with arms, there's a plastic armchair, and there's a plastic regular chair. Then you have it with some cushions on it. So integrated, half cushion, full cushion. So and no cushion. So my personal favorite is, from an optical point of view, my personal favorite is no cushion. But from a comfortable level, I like the one with full cushion. But full cushion doesn't look so nice. So at the end, we needed eight chairs, and we decided for all of them. So that means two no cushions, two half cushions, two full cushions and two armchairs.

[Adrienne Adhami] (24:42 - 24:42)

Okay.

[Nils Behrens] (24:42 - 24:51)

And it looks quite nice because you see that it's one family, but it is different children of the family.

[Adrienne Adhami] (24:52 - 24:52)

Yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (24:52 - 25:15)

Nevertheless, we realized that at the end, we were three persons in the family. And at the end, we see that we all want to sit on the full cushion. And one of us was always so, no, why should I sit there? And when you have, especially on the weekends, three meals together.

[Adrienne Adhami] (25:15 - 25:15)

Yeah.

[Nils Behrens] (25:16 - 25:19)

It's a useful discussion there.

[Adrienne Adhami] (25:19 - 25:20)

They're very useful. Exactly.

[Nils Behrens] (25:21 - 25:29)

Anyhow, so when intuition says one thing and logic says another, how do we know which we should trust?

[Adrienne Adhami] (25:29 - 26:30)

Well, this is such a great question. And I think the real difference is the difference between immediate emotion and intuition. And it's very hard to discern between the two. So intuition is pattern recognition. Actually, it's the body and the mind connecting saying, I mean, you've heard this term red flag. Sometimes people say this is a red flag. That means your body, your brain recognizes a pattern that it has seen before. So I've seen this before. And I typically, when I see this, this is what happens. So sometimes a doctor is a good example who maybe they've seen 1000 patients with these three symptoms, those three symptoms, when they see them very quickly, because of intuition, there's also analysis, of course, there and lots and lots and lots of times they've seen this, they're able to diagnose very quickly, okay, the baby with the hot cheeks and the spots and this, they have the chickenpox. They're not, it's not magic. It's not Oh, my gosh, you just guessed it. But no, they've seen 1000 times. So intuition sometimes can be that or even, you know, a tennis player, if you've hit the same ball 1000 times, certain times intuition tells you I know where the ball is going before it goes there.

[Nils Behrens] (26:30 - 26:30)

Yeah.

[Adrienne Adhami] (26:30 - 26:44)

So that's intuition. And it can play into lots of things. Of course, when someone sometimes is speaking to us, if we're looking at their face, and the facial expression doesn't match the words that they say, that can our intuition goes, this is strange. This person doesn't mean what they say.

[Nils Behrens] (26:44 - 27:13)

Yeah, 100%. I can give you a very good example. I've spoken with so many women in the last time in Berlin, because in Berlin, it seems to be dating seems to be a real challenge for women in their 30s. Or maybe also in the 20s. I don't know. But but I have some really good friends. And they say, Yeah, but at the end, now I decided maybe children are not so important for me, getting having own children is not so important for me, because I don't have the right partner.

[Adrienne Adhami] (27:13 - 27:13)

Okay.

[Nils Behrens] (27:13 - 27:24)

But this is probably really the best example, when you look at them, and you see how they're saying the sentence, but it doesn't match what they're, it doesn't match at all.

[Adrienne Adhami] (27:24 - 28:11)

Okay. So that's an example where your intuition is telling you this person is saying this, but the feeling is different. And that's very, very strong. And it's really important to notice that and not discard it. But emotion led decisions now, when people confuse that between Oh, that was my intuition. No, sometimes emotion is quick and impulsive and fast. So for example, someone sends you an email and you're really angry and you write an angry email and you send it back, that can be an emotional decision. You know, that's not intuition. Sometimes that's emotion. So if it feels quick, if it feels responsive, reactive, that's often emotion. And if it feels, if it feels, I guess, deeper and more is a hard one to kind of really, you know, articulate, but I think the feeling is easy to recognize and hard to maybe explain.

[Nils Behrens] (28:12 - 28:35)

Yeah, yeah. And this really leads me to my next question, because you're talking about value lead decisions. And I think it's pretty hard to discover what their true values are. And just the ones they think, I should have it. Because it is, I don't know, everybody wants it. I also want it.

[Adrienne Adhami] (28:35 - 30:00)

Yeah, of course, of course, everybody says, Oh, everybody values their, you know, autonomy or freedom or health and these things. I think value led decisions are very important, especially, I think, I guess, like we go through so many seasons in our life, you know, you think about being a young person, adolescence, 20s, 30s, we go through these seasons, and our values can change, what we value the most in that season can change. And I think when we think about making a decision that is value led, I encourage people to interrogate who, where did this value come from? So is it something you sat around the table and your parents always told you this is an important thing? So you think this is an important thing? Do you value that still now? You know, I think there's probably things that maybe when I was younger, I can't think of really an example right now, but something that I would think this is so important to me, and I value this so much. But actually, maybe sometimes your, your friends, I love my friends. But sometimes, you know, making a value led decision when you have a family, sometimes you have to prioritize maybe the family's needs over the friends or something like that, or your career. So I think when you have really start to understand, okay, where did my values come from? I have a friend who she's Japanese, and she grew up in Japan, but then she moved to Australia and the UK, and she's around the world. But many of her core values are based on Japanese culture. So one of her core values is about respect. And she sees being prompt or being late. If you are late, she sees it as very, very disrespectful, almost to you know, she'll be very upset.

[Nils Behrens] (30:00 - 30:01)

Still my opinion.

[Adrienne Adhami] (30:01 - 31:11)

Yeah. So this is her value. And she said, Look, I grew up with this value, you can't be late for things, you can't be late for people, it's almost intentional rudeness to be late. So now she's living in London, and she's living in a Western culture. And many of her friends are late and not intentionally. And she used to be very upset and say, you know, this is just they're so rude, and they just don't respect me. And so she had to come to talk to me about this. And she said, you know what, I am Japanese, and I have Japanese culture, but I'm no longer living in Japan. So she had to kind of she still has this value. And as a friend who knows that she values that I will make so much effort to be early to be on time, I'll never be late to meet this friend, because I know how important this is as a value for her. But she also tries to flex with her Western friends, because she says, I also know that their value is slightly different to mine due to their culture. And I think a good example of how when we understand what we value and why, then some things are non negotiable, like a deal breaker, you know, if you value loyalty in a marriage, and the other person doesn't, that's going to be a deal breaker. But if it's about something like punctuality and culture, then I think it's a good example to understand, oh, this person, they're not so uptight, come on, relax, you go, No, this is something that's very important to them.

[Nils Behrens] (31:11 - 31:19)

Yeah, it is. It is. And I 100% and this is something you have the feeling that the reaction is not rational.

[Adrienne Adhami] (31:20 - 31:27)

People say, Come on, relax, it's traffic. I'm 20 minutes late. Why is she so upset? But for her, she says, No, this is, it's a no go.

[Nils Behrens] (31:27 - 31:41)

I see. Can you share a decision because there are a lot of personal opinion, personal experience in your book, can you share a decision of your own that was shaped by your own core values, rather than a fear or expectation?

[Adrienne Adhami] (31:42 - 33:14)

Yes, I have a very good example, actually. So one of my core values is to use my voice. And what I mean by that is to speak honestly, to speak, I guess to speak up for things that maybe I believe in or that I value. And I think not everybody can do that. You know, not everybody has a vote or a voice, or they don't always have the opportunity. So I feel like there's been certain times in my life, for example, when I was working in a startup company, where maybe I was quite new. And I wasn't later on in the company, I was more senior. But when I first started, I wasn't. So I felt like certain things might happen, maybe you're in a meeting, maybe there's things decisions being made, and certain people felt like they had more of an ear and other people would listen, other people didn't listen. And I always felt like one of my values, and it's almost my responsibility really to speak up. So if something feels like it's unjust, or it's unfair, then some people will just say, well, that's just how it is, and they walk away. But I felt like one of my values is to and not it doesn't mean conflict. But it means, you know, saying no, I think this is something that is unfair, and we should discuss it more. So sometimes you have to think, okay, is this going to cost me, let's say they said, okay, this person is difficult, we don't want you in the company anymore, that could happen. But I think that, actually, for me, it turned out well. And I think the founders really listened, and they respected me for doing that, other people in the company started to trust and respect me for doing that. And every time I've done it, even if I felt nervous, even if I felt afraid to speak up and say, hold on, this is something we need to talk about. Every time I've remembered, this is something that I value. And so far, it's worked out.

[Nils Behrens] (33:15 - 33:22)

If someone listening right now and feel stuck, afraid of making a wrong decision, what would you tell them?

[Adrienne Adhami] (33:24 - 34:15)

I would tell this person to remember that nobody, nobody you can think of, nobody that you respect, that you admire, that you look towards, has ever lived a perfect life with no mistakes, with no regrets, with everything just going perfectly and smoothly. There's so much uncertainty in life. And when we look at making a decision, big or small, there are so many potential outcomes, potential variables, things that could happen or could change, micro, macro, things out of our control. So I think it's important to have self-compassion to make the decision that you choose at this time with the knowledge that you have, trusting the gut, feeling what feels good, also doing some thoughtful analysis. And then if it goes, if it works out great, maybe it wasn't all down to you. And if it doesn't all work out great, also maybe not all down to you.

[Nils Behrens] (34:16 - 34:37)

Yeah, I think self-compassion is in this context a very important thing, because I think the worst thing you could do is making a decision, having maybe afterwards a feeling that it was a wrong decision, which always could be, but nevertheless also to blame you then and make it even worse, I think is pretty good advice.

[Adrienne Adhami] (34:38 - 35:04)

Yeah, and unfortunately, it's human nature that if we make a decision that goes well, even if it's something like investing, you choose something and it goes well, we accredit that to us. We accredit the success to ourselves. Oh, I chose well. But if it goes wrong, we sometimes, people don't choose, oh, it wasn't my fault, something else happened. It's kind of this way or other people are the other way around. So they'll say, oh, it was, they'll blame themselves. And I think you're right. Compassion, forgiveness, and letting know, let it choose again, let it go. Tomorrow you have a chance to make another choice.

[Nils Behrens] (35:05 - 35:21)

So thank you very much, Adrienne, for this conversation. For everyone listening, Adrienne's book Decisions That Matter is out now. It's a practical, inspiring guide for anyone who wants to make choices with a line to their true values. And I'm saying thank you very much.

[Adrienne Adhami] (35:21 - 35:22)

Thank you for having me.

[Nils Behrens] (35:26 - 35:29)

Do you have a favorite supplement in your life you won't miss?

[Adrienne Adhami] (35:29 - 35:31)

I do. Magnesium.

[Nils Behrens] (35:31 - 35:31)

Magnesium?

[Adrienne Adhami] (35:32 - 35:51)

Why? Magnesium is a supplement that I try to take quite often because I'm very active. So I feel, and I've read lots about how it aids recovery and I'm somebody who, yeah, often I'm either training for an endurance race, like a half marathon, or I'm doing Pilates and strength training and things like that. And also to aid sleep. So that's one that I'm very consistent with.

[Nils Behrens] (35:52 - 36:17)

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